Here We go again

TSudduth

Member
Has this happened before?
Obviously doesn’t go through, but what’s the general feeling the people making decisions have towards it?
 
Seems like it was 5 or 6 years ago. They seem to get more extreme each time they introduce this legislation. They have already passed the house. They voted party lines with one crossover. They keep adding amendments. That is how they slip things in. The Lacey act is not all that bad, that why we are asking them to drop the amendment. Animal rights are always popular and so the legislators are happy to pass more laws prohibiting wild animals from being brought into the country. Unless you are in the hobby, most people think of invasive species and hear on the news about a piranha being caught in a lake in a place where they would die come winter. Most of these are pacu fish anyway. The animal rights people seem to get more and more extreme and use these these incidents to push animal rights bills. They have lots of money and the pet trade doesn't have much money to fight this kind of legislation. They also are banking on time as they slipped this in late, so there can not be any organized opposition. That is why it is important to email your senator. Passing this could be the nail in the coffin for the Hobbyist. It could be the end of importing tropical fish and even the end of Fish farms and aquarium club auctions. It could prevent hobbyist from reintroducing fish back into their native waters. There several Goodeidae that have been reintroduce back into Mexican springs where they were once plentiful.
 

kcmikey

Administrator
Staff member
I can't imagine anything like this could ever pass, but lots of problems may come out as a result. It's up to us to stay informed and fight for our passion. The opponent doesn't fight fair!
 

subdivide

Member
I have to play devil's advocate. Who is this dude? Why is he making this video 36 hours after back surgery, as he states? Is he a journalist or this this an OPINION of someone who does not have access to the first hand information. Journalism and Opinion pieces are very, very different. You have to question any source, their motives and their funding. Who paid for him to be on YouTube? Who paid for it, at the end of the day? This is not journalism, guys. A Facebook video?

As for the topic, I do not think that the government can be too precautious regarding the introduction of non-native species. It has been proven again and again that species introduced through the pet trade, turn out to be hugely problematic. Not all, of course, but a few outshine the rest. Zebra mussels, assassin snails, carp smacking people in the face, Kudzu back home, reticulated pythons, boa constrictors, Aedaes eytptii (the mosquito) has killed more humans than any other creature ever ever ever..... ever..... ever. Because malaria and it is not supposed to be here.

It might be prudent to check out introducing a new species into the wild from another part of the world with exactly 0 predators before you cut it loose, in my estimation. I grew up with kudzu everywhere. What if that fish the new kudzu, chocking out our streams, like the non-native crayfish. Hernando DeSoto introduced pigs to America around 1525, before that, no pigs. No earthworms either. Earthworms came as ballast from Europe and got dumped for cargo going back. Now Both the entire South American And North American Continents have earthworms. No fooling. Or Honeybees or anything like this. The Irish couldn't starve without a potato from South America and blah, blah.

Someone has to preserve the balance. The EPA.

There have to be some rules, even if people don't like them. That is what I am for. I specialize in bad news. Hahahaha.


Everything has consequences. Excess Food= Excess Nitrogen = Alagae=Snails. That's natural.

or

Capture snails, reduce food, water changes = happy fish, less snails (temporarily), excess nitrogen and algae (Cycle Repeats)



The system is more closely dependent on inputs from you in the second scenario although you might think everything is the same. It really is not. Nature wins every time. Fight it and you will lose, that is my belief. Ignore scientific data at your own peril. Mother nature wrote the rules. We are still just trying to figure them out.

Calculus which was co-invented, technically, by Sir Issac Newton, the first dude ever knighted just for being brilliant....... Calculus in Latin means...... hard. Literally, hard. The stuff that a dentist scrapes off your teeth is not plaque, you should remove plaque. They remove calculus with stainless steel instruments because it is hard.

Math calculus isn't that hard, is just looks at a function as the limit(<0), as the limit approaches 0. It can never be 0 based on the math, it can never be 0, but get closer and closer and closer and closer.

That is why Izzy Newt has laws and other guys like Einstein have theories. Newtie has laws of Motion, Laws of Thermodynamics, Laws of Enthalpy/Entropy, that has never been disproven. They are they law.

So be easy with selling a Siamese Algae Eater to somebody who is going to throw them in the river or in a delta somewhere, or anything like that, or a turtle or a shark or a guppy or a ball python if you have absolutely no idea what the consequences of your actions might be. Sellers are not liable. No Way. But sellers should say bring these back versus releasing these in the wild, IMO.

I believe some of my plants could be problematic here so they so in the dry trash, after trimming. Not the swords or Crypts or Dwarf Crypts but the but the cut and run stuff. I forget the latin name now (2 years of Latin) I block it out but it is common foreground. I recently acquired cultured specimens of 3 fore/ or back ground mosses. So we will see. I wouldn't want them to get free in the Spring.

If you know the consequences of your actions, then you take responsibility for them, in the Southern Code of Gentlemen.


But if you are advocating firing off without knowing, then who takes responsibility for your actions? What if you introduce the new Carp in the Missouri River, knocking fools out. Who is responsible for your actions? Personal Responsibility stops at you personally. Having the USDA is a hassle and you can't do what you want when you just happen to feel like it, but that's not the point is it? Who is responsible when you bring the new Carp because that affects more that just you personally, doesn't it. A lot more.

Nobody wants to call the cops until they are having a heart attack, then they bitch about how long they take them to show up. Just check it out before you have an open door policy. The other option is having an open door policy before you check it out and that don't make no dang sense at all.


It is all the same thing, really, I don't care. It truly is just a matter of perspective.
 

subdivide

Member
Just as perspective and you do not suspect that I am too crazy my first internship was working at a USDA certified plant pathology lab that was looking for a pathogenic fungus. Phytophtera remora You might find my name. Anyway. See where the USDA facility is and where the labs would be and cross reference. We shut multimillion dollar nurseries down at the drop of a hat with a letter. These guys have guys to pay. Oooooh, sooooo sooooryy you got the fungus. But it has to be. The cannot be allowed to spread it to any other locations or distributors. Nope. My first internship and then I got hired by Jean Jean the dancing machine.
 
You are over thinking this. It is pretty simple. The government wants to control which fish ect. you can keep. A white list of acceptable critters. A Black list which is already in place, makes more sense. One of the reasons HAAS and other fish clubs exists is to educate the public. We all need to be responsible hobbyist. Once we lose freedoms, it is hard or impossible to get them back. Writing our Senators could prevent damaging our hobby for ever.
 

JanOlson

Administrator
Staff member
HAAS+ Member
Unfortunately the government all too often punishes the many rather than focus on the misdeeds of the few. No one has more concern about invasive species than I do but you’re right Walter, blacklist locally the problem species.
 

TSudduth

Member
I’m not sure id keep fish without the possibility of more rare and interesting species. Maybe just experimental tanks with plants, maybe for wild caught natives, but I think I’d probably just never have fish except guppies..
 

subdivide

Member
Well, I am just of the mindset that the government needs to have a fly/no fly list before specimens are introduced not just to us, but to people who realistically have no idea what to do with them. Japanese beetles, Emerald ash borers, boas choking out alligators, Kudzu strangling 300 year old oaks. What do Cory cats do in rivers or non-native turtles. Siamese algae eaters are prolific. Taiwan flame moss might choke out the Okefenokee, who knows?

Somebody has to check it out before people go for broke. What if the same rules applied to chemicals? You'd be blind, but they are tested and labeled before you are ever even allowed to touch them.

C'est la vie.
 

subdivide

Member
I was just thinking about the lionfish fouling all the nets in the Caribbean. There are so many and they are super bold. And they are not supposed to be there. Don't introduce the next lionfish because that is how he got down there. Through the aquarium trade around Miami and South Florida. No kidding.
 

JanOlson

Administrator
Staff member
HAAS+ Member
I don't believe Japanese beetles, Emerald ash borers, or Kudzu, not to mention Asian flying carp were introduced by the pet hobby. I'll give you the lionfish and the boas. Neither would be a problem here in Kansas City. Some undescribed Corydoras or Apistogramma will never be a problem in our waterways. I contend it's a state by state issue not a big brother federal one.
 

JanOlson

Administrator
Staff member
HAAS+ Member
Chemicals are different and should be treated differently than invasives. The aforementioned beetles etc won't kill you. Mosquitos as you pointed out can but again ..... not introduced by hobbyists. As someone who was in the lawn and garden business for most of my life I can cite a few mulligans on that one too. DDT, Chlordane, Silvex, etc etc. What about glysophate (I guess cash trumps cancer on that one.)
 

KeyAquatics

New member
Dans fish had a great livestream a couple days ago on this topic he had Bob of PIJAC on to talk about how this could affect the pet industry.
 

subdivide

Member
Please do not misrepresent me by suggesting that I said that emerald ash borers or carp could kill you or were introduced by hobbyists. I was drawing a logical parallel between the introduction of invasive species. The pet trade, but moreso the nursery industry for ornamental plants and grasses, agricultural transplants, and accidental invasives are a huge huge problem.

To say that it doesn't affect Kansas City is such a weak cop out. All of the species mentioned above affect the US economy. That is why they need Federal Regulation. These species cross state boundaries but what if the Fish and Wildlife Agency stopped at every state line? Not my problem 10 feet from me? Come on. That's not how my Mama taught me.

You try your best to protect everybody, all the time.

All those pesticides that JanOlson mentioned are true, but they all should be tested for safety, no? If that was done in the first place, maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. But profits over people will produce a situation in which Monsanto still owns the patent to DDT and can kick it up at any time the Federal Government stops doing its job or any state pursues a challenge to Federal Ban in court. Which could happen.

Politics is not science and science is not politics. Religion is a separate thing entirely.

I am a scientist and by gum we need more impartial evaluators of the data.

I could name 100 ways in which people are not acting in their own best interest, but that is politics, not aquatics.

Everyone has to make decisions for themselves but I will always be Conservative when it comes to releasing organisms into the wild. They are illegal aliens in the most true sense and more than 1 out of 100 of these guys might be a felon. There's just no way to know, if we don't do some kind of screening.

Build a wall for people but let all the fish and invertebrates in and then let them go seems like like of a loosey goosey stance on imigration, at best, and horribly inconsistent in reality.

Everyone has motivations, but in order to be objective, my personal interests cannot effect my decision. Such is the way of the scientist. I still have to say check these guys out.

I bet those plecos could establish in Florida. Florida is tropical, in fact. Most of it, anyway. Lots of species do and they do not need any more. Or where I grew up either. We get those bastards.

Now the new DDT is any pesticide that will kill Kudzu, an invasive species from Asia. It is sprayed every year heavily and every year it comes back. Bamboo is taking over thousands of acres. Someone thought it would be cool to plant their money tree in the yard or whatever. Boom.

Invasive species are invasive species, is my point. Animal, vegetable, mineral. I think that we should study them at the Federal Level and not but the burden on the States to repeat the work of the state right next door to study the same animal or plant or fungus or bacteria or whatever. Why should the burden fall on the States when we have a Federal System of Government and an EPA and a Department of the Interior and all of this that is already funded? Do you just want to have 4 or 5 wasteful things that do the same thing for no real reason at all?

Protect our streams. They only came this way 1 time. We cannot go back in time and undo anything that has been done or take back anything that shouldn't be there.//

And why should chemicals be treated different than invasives? Invasives actually have the ability to do much more damage to US economy than a small chemical spill/fire.
 

subdivide

Member
Also, I watched a lot of the video that was linked to earlier. Thanks Key Aquatics.

I had to shut it down when I realized that at no point were we going to be shown the ACTUAL TEXT of the ACTUAL BILL. That is everything.

The gentleman being interviewed had very strong opinions, but this is just a YouTube opinion piece. It is not journalism.

Journalism would have text of the bill and interviews with the people on the committee who passed it. This is an opinion about an opinion.
But good to know this voice is out there. There obviously is another side, as well.

At least 2 sides to every story.
 
It is the amendment to the Lacey Act that is so bad. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/626

Shown Here:
Introduced in Senate (03/09/2021)

Lacey Act Amendments of 2021
This bill modifies the injurious wildlife provision of the Lacey Act, which generally prohibits the import and shipment of listed living creatures and their eggs.
First, the bill specifies that the prohibition on shipment applies to interstate shipments within the continental United States.
Second, the bill authorizes the Department of the Interior to issue an emergency designation prohibiting the importation of a species if necessary to address an imminent threat to human beings, to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry, or to wildlife, or to the wildlife resources of the United States.
Third, the bill establishes a presumptive prohibition on the importation of any nonnative species of wild mammal, wild bird, fish (including mollusks and crustacea), amphibian, or reptile, or the eggs of any such species. The presumption may be overcome if Interior determines that the species does not pose a significant risk of invasiveness to the United States.
 

subdivide

Member
Sounds about right to me, I think. It's a compromise anyway.

Like emerald ash borer could have been slowed or stopped with this approach.

Mind you, this does not affect any organism that is already in the United States in any way. So that's important.

But as far as future imports, you may have to think of all organisms like people. Do you want every single person crossing the border and setting up camp and breeding with no restrictions?

In order to have a consistent sent of values, firstly you need a set of values and then an opinion to be consistent to. I do not personally believe that all immigrants should be let in, no questions asked, wherever you are from, for how long you want to stay.

There have to be rules for people and for catfish and moss and for trees and insects. They all can be invasive, if you think that way. Kudzu was brought over on purpose. Hernando DeSoto brought the first pigs in America. They don't belong here, although they have great value.

Be consistent, I think. If you think that checking people out at the borders then you logically must be for this. This is a protective measure to make sure we don't have Kudzu or Aides aegyptii, or weird grubs where they don't belong or cats where they don't belong. You absolutely cannot say that this doesn't matter because I live in KC. What if you lived in FLA? Or GA, or MS, Or ALA, or SC, or NC, or TN, or LA, or TX? You'd be feeling differently if it was in your backyard.

Just my opinion.
 
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